For as long as I’ve been around, the term “natural” has been thrown around to refer to guys who are good with women without being a part of the seduction community. Within the definition, what is implied is that:
1) Naturals are good with women without trying to be.
2) Naturals aren’t conscious of what they do nor do they analyze their interactions.
3) Naturals possess superior skills or abilities related to pick up than most people (sense of humor, charm, bantering, etc.)
4) They have stellar “inner game”
I’d like to take a moment and shit all over all four of these notions.
A couple weeks ago, I moved back to Texas where I grew up. I’ve been hanging out with some old friends from my childhood who go out a lot and a couple guys they know. Within this group of guys I’ve been going with, it occurred to me that three of them are what the community would call “naturals.” It was kind of funny, because I’ve known these guys forever and I’ve just never thought of them as ladies’ men. But all three of them are in their 20’s. All three of them have 50+ lays. All three of them go out regularly and pull regularly… One of them pulled both nights this weekend, the other pulled this weekend and last.
Now, I had a group of friends in Boston that I went out with who were very good with women as well, but they were PUA’s and they learned through the community. And I can tell you, going out with these Texas guys is like night and day compared to the guys in Boston, and since coming home tonight, I’ve been trying to place my finger on exactly what it is.
The funny thing is, the “natural” guys here are just normal, cool guys. They would not stand out at all if you saw them in a club. They’re all decent-looking but nothing head-turning. They aren’t exactly spectacular when they get into set either. One of them is a little awkward in conversations, one of them has some AA, one of them escalates like a bitch at times, but usually gets the girl on a day 2 or day 3. But in the long-run, they all get awesome results with attractive girls.
But at the same time, they’re quite aware of all of this. They’re all aware of their actions and consider choices they’ve made and interactions after the fact. They don’t use the same lingo or theories, but they have the wherewithal to know when they fucked up. They’re DEFINITELY aware of their intentions and definitely put A LOT of effort into being good with women… just as much as many community guys do (although they don’t buy products and bootcamps and shit, they just go out a lot).
So what’s the difference? Why are these guys pulling ass as consistently and of quality as most PUA instructors, but they’ve never read anything more than “The Game” (and laughed at it) or taken a bootcamp?
After thinking about it for a while, there are two GLARING differences that seem to explain just about everything.
1) They are ALWAYS are going for what they want, no matter what.
2) They don’t take themselves or their pick up skills seriously at all.
I think these things get mis-construed as awesome “inner game” often, when actually, some of the best naturals I’ve hung out with have been neurotic or really insecure or had all sorts of “inner game” issues. But I can say, without exception, every non-community guy I’ve met who has 50+ lays has gotten good by the two things above. Without help of ebooks, audio courses, tele-conferences, etc.
Ironically, despite its virtues and lessons, the community inadvertantly interferes with both of the points above. PUA gets us side-tracked in random stuff like saying “hi” to 50 strangers, or opening girls with kino, or trying different voicemails. Seriously, if I could have a dime for every time I was out with a community guy who said, “It’s cool, I got her number, she’s into me man, I wanted to open more sets…” I’d… well, I’d drown the stupid fucker who said that in dimes. Unfortunately, it’s pervasive… community guys are constantly bitching out of opportunities because they’ve already accomplished some smaller, simpler, non-sexual goal that they set on a message board somewhere.
These types of theoretical goals and focus on the concept of PUA being a skill-set also influences us to take it very seriously. The truth is (if you haven’t figure it out on this blog yet), is that pick up is obscenely random. No matter how “good” you are, the majority of your interactions are going to lie outside of your control and there’s ALWAYS going to be some aspect of a numbers game involved. But as soon as we start taking our “skill set” and conversion rates and close rates seriously, we make ourselves vulnerable to failure and rejection.
The first is key. And it’s so fucking obvious. But going out with these guys is so fucking refreshing after years of coaching and hanging out with PUA’s. Everything comes back to, “Am I going to hook up with this girl?” And if the answer is no, then the next question is, “What do I have to do to hook up with this girl?” That’s it. No talk about practicing mixed sets, no talk about working on their vibing, no discussion of logistics… just, “I’m trying to hook up with this girl.” Got numbers in his phone, he’s going for it. Running into a girl he met last weekend? Going for it. Making out with a girl but she has to go? Going for it. No rationalizations, no excuses, no concern with the meta-process. There’s a clear success and failure at all times.
The second part is huge as well. I guess being so involved in the scene the last few years clouded my perspective to how fucking self-important we can be. Again, I think this is an extension of prioritizing all sorts of ancillary crap (how’s my A2 game doing? what do my wingmen think of this girl? what’s my LR going to read like if this works?).
Hanging with these guys is awesome because we just laugh at ourselves… all the fucking time. No one is safe. Every guy gets ripped repeatedly for anything and everything. Hell, they rip on me for being a PUA coach. It’s fucking great. They rip on me for my products. And it’s cool, because to them, I’m the dorky, skinny dude they went to high school with.
But it’s that same attitude that leads to success. Nothing is off-limits. Everybody is constantly reminded that no one is too important and that no interaction is too important. If you are attached to your results (or lack thereof), hanging out with these guys will be like a nuclear bomb to the ego. And it’s so healthy.
It’s also felt fucking great for me. One of the side-effects of this job is a lot of ego stroking, and at times it’s hard to not let it get to my head. In fact, there are times where it drives me crazy and I just want to be treated like a normal dude, because really I am just a normal dude… just like these normal dudes… posted up at the bar, cracking jokes at each other, and chasing tail now and again… but when I do chase, I don’t fuck around… I go for it.
I believe that when you’re insulated in an internet-bubble, that it’s so easy to get caught up in nonsense and start thinking that things are a huge deal and big problem when really… as my “natural” friend says… “there’s no there there.” The problems or achievements are just in our head. And what truly matters happens in the laughter between you and the people you are with face-to-face.
And maybe that’s really the only important thing to remember in all of this. Always go for what you want. But never take yourself too seriously.
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15 Comments
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Marclee
Nov 22, 2009 7:10
just the advice I needed roght now
Random
Nov 22, 2009 8:22
Where in TX are you? I’ve lived there for several years… I find the girls to be much more beautiful than anywhere else I ever lived, but because there are more men than women in Texas (as is the case with most states once you get west of the Mississippi River), they are, well, bitchier. They’re in demand, and they know it. Compared to a city like, say, Atlanta, where there are more girls than men, where the girls are thrilled to get any attention at all, even beautiful ones.
Kevin
Nov 22, 2009 9:03
I’m not trying to be all negative and critical below, I’m just curious:
Isn’t all this “Just let go and not care” advice all way easier said than done?
I’ve seen dozens of variations on the “don’t care” article, and I never found them that helpful in the long run. I get a little short-lived rush of motivation while reading them, but that’s it.
How does a guy really get himself to this state of not caring? I think it’s more of this drawn out life process, but I couldn’t say what it is…
Entropy
Nov 22, 2009 12:48
@Kevin: Not at all. Read the article again. These guys care very much.
Care about it, go for it… but don’t take it seriously.
It’s like the difference between treating every set like the LSAT’s or treating them like a game of cards with your friends. You still care about winning the game of cards, and you still try… but if you lose, it doesn’t feel like your life is ending and you don’t go to some forum and post eight pages about it.
Random: I’m in Austin. Yeah, girls are bitchier here than the East Coast at first. But definitely a lot more party girls here because of the 6th street factor than other places. Every city has its pro’s and con’s. Quality is Austin is decent — as good as any city not named New York or Miami — and difficulty isn’t a cakewalk (like midwest cities) .
But it is what it is.
Train
Nov 22, 2009 13:55
I don’t mean to get all PUA-Speak now, but how do these guys interact with the girls they are interested in? I imagine they aren’t asking about fake fights outside or what type of themed party to have… Is it lots of “kino” and “direct game”? A mixture?
I was at a swanky bar last night in NYC, lots of girls, but couldn’t find my balls until it was too late and several honeydips had been eyeing me… must recall the advice in this wonderful post…
Entropy
Nov 22, 2009 14:24
Their verbals are pretty plain and straight-forward (something I’ve always believed in). Typical bar chit-chat with a few jokes thrown in, and maybe telling her she’s cute if they think it’ll help their chances. They do lose a number of sets, but they make up for it in the fact that they’re just always going for it, no matter what. They’re also pretty good at keeping an eye out for IOI’s and then making a move. But that comes to anybody with a ton of field experience. I’d actually say that my verbal game is head and shoulders above theirs, but it doesn’t show that much in our results. Or at least it hasn’t yet.
Rake
Nov 22, 2009 17:42
I’m liking this blog more and more lately.
I’ve never been to Austin and so I don’t really know the culture there, but my family is from S. Texas (near Corpus). Something I’ve noticed about men down there is that they tend to be a lot less in their own heads – much more Alpha and much less self-doubt and worry about everyday life than say, your typical guy from Seattle, which is where I’ve lived most of my life.
olivherbst
Nov 23, 2009 12:21
Hey guys.
So in the end: What is more effective? Their Game or our typical, maybe indirect PUA Game? I strongly believe in all those subtle cues, that the community, (or if it all comes down to) Mystery, teaches. The only hard part is getting them all together, making them work. If you analyze, what your friends do, is there even a difference, all things except looks considered?
Besides: I would really love to read more about your experience in the German nightlife (or daygame, if you did some of it). Your talk was pretty cool (principles, not rules – so true), but it´d be awesome to get to know the things you noticed.
Greetings,
Olivherbst
Entropy
Nov 23, 2009 18:08
@Oliv: I guess my point in all of this is that they’re actually not that different from us at all.
My point is that while we’re so focused on HOW we game, they’re more focused on going all out.
For the record, they get much better results than my Boston PUA friends (who are good and cool guys, btw).
Aaron
Nov 27, 2009 15:49
Amazing…great post…Entropy I know you just made the pickuptube website did you video tape your natural friends? Im guessing they would laugh at it but did ya?
randomfemale
Nov 27, 2009 21:49
THIS is what I’m talking about.
I have literally read and read and read all of these PUA’s sites through and through for the last couple of months. Mostly, well, because its intriguing as hell. I had no idea until lately that this community even existed. I guess maybe because too often I have been that female to get to enjoy these kind of interactions, and I am flattered that this much thought goes into it, even if it is just for a piece of ass for a night or some confidence. I had no idea it was so complicated.
Maybe I enjoyed this article so much because of the “natural” kind of guy, and quite possibly because I did live in the south for five years during college, and as much as I love to be gorilla-pimped, I do love some thoughts behind all this. But I think more appropriately its because, to be completely frank here, so many other sites have been such bullshit. Laugh out loud bullshit. Seriously? Talk to 150 people a month? Dress like your idol? Should you add her as a friend on facebook? It all seems so petty when you just get down to the basics? To blow or not to blow?
Thanks for breaking it down. So, hands down, this is my favorite site to read. You are truly talented, keeping it balanced. And I am truly a female, for my life: couldn’t of said that in less than a paragraph
Entropy
Nov 27, 2009 21:59
@Aaron: I did to one of them, and yes, he did laugh at how ridiculous the idea seemed.
I mentioned interviewing another natural friend of mine for a product earlier this year. He actually thought about it but declined citing privacy issues and… get this… not knowing enough about women to warrant an interview. This guy has legit been with 300+ women over the last 10 years in probably 25 different countries, and he was telling ME that he doesn’t “get” women well enough to be interviewed on a product. And he was serious!
Just goes to show you once again, the natural’s mentality…
@female: Thanks for the comments, always nice to have more female readers around here — makes me feel like I’m at least getting something right.
sandros
Dec 5, 2009 0:20
YEah, last month in nyc I lived with a natural and with your advice my results sky rocketed!
What blew me away after reading so much crap is next day I moved in with him ..he had a new girl over and closed her effortlessly..as a mattter of fact to him, it was like somewhat of not a big deal to fuck a girl, like blowing his nose or ordering food…I hagned out with him the whole day and girls would flirt with him,etc etc, he had women after him yet he wasnt even goodlooking, he isnt into this so called “gamey stuff”.lol
I saw him close at the apt and I was like WTF?!!! Anyways, the next day I pulled a SNL and then after that is when I started building my 1st ever rotation…Entropy did coach me to a point of getting really good that I almost did the “swap” or do a pig roast .lol.
It didnt happend but I did get a slap from that russian chick.
they talk like : “no big deal…. if she flaked , who cares , call another one…take initiative! your the man! etc etc.”
Seeing this cool guys like these really blow my mind that I dropped alot of community BS…. just working with real world coach like Entropy.
This post is awesome ,it reminded me of my BEST friend “the natural” , Thank you .
GREAT POST…..
Aaron
Dec 7, 2009 22:41
I don’t know any naturals but from what I hear from other coaches is that its hard to find these guys and when you do find them its hard for them to give you any advice because its hard for them to explain what there doing did you have any trouble getting advice from one of your natural friends?
sandros
Dec 7, 2009 23:14
Aaron, its true that its very hard, their advice is simple and straightforward. The key is in their BELIEFS.
they way they view “game” or even if they did view it. I learn more by imitating the guy and did what he did, learned to take initative instead of relying or worrying about “value game” BS community talks about so much. Once you sthink like they think, game changes, it becomes effortless.
the advantage we have is we are aware of it and we can reproduce the results.
Entropy is IMO not a typical guy who found the community that did MM then RZD then became a coach…Entropy to me (In aLL RESPECT) Is a natural with MAD skills , that can teach .
KeniStyles